Today, I’m very happy to have the amazing Nancy Antenucci as a guest on the Biddy Tarot Podcast.  Nancy is a professional Tarot reader, spiritual mentor, and author of the book “Psychic Tarot: Using Your Natural Psychic Abilities to Read the Cards”.  She recently led a workshop called “22 Acts of Magic” where participants explore the Major Arcana through music, art, visualization, and reflection.  Learn more about this remarkable experience in episode 135. 

In this episode, you’ll learn: 

• Is it enough to just be tapping into your intuition or do you need to learn the traditional systems of the cards? 
• All about the 22 Acts of Magic workshop 

Additional Materials  

• Tarot Card Keywords Chart 

• Nancy Antenucci's Website 

Brigit: You're listening to the Biddy Tarot podcast and this is episode 135, “22 Acts of Magic with Nancy Antenucci.” 

Intro: Welcome to the Biddy Tarot Podcast, where you'll learn how to connect more deeply with your intuition and live an empowered and enlightened life with the Tarot cards as your guide. Listen as Brigit and her guests share their very best tips and strategies to help you read Tarot with confidence. And now, here's your host, Brigit Esselmont. 

Brigit: Hello and welcome back to the Biddy Tarot Podcast. In this episode, I'm very excited to be talking to renowned Tarot reader, spiritual mentor, and uber Creative Advocate, Nancy Antenucci. Nancy's the author of the book “Psychic Tarot: Using Your Natural Psychic Abilities to Read the Cards,” and in fact, she was on the Biddy Tarot Podcast a little while ago talking about how you can bring more of your psychic ability into Tarot. So make sure you check that one out. Now, Nancy's also an active keynote speaker, creative director, reader, and performer at various conferences including the Reader's Studio of New York, the Women and Spirituality Conference in Minnesota, and she's also recently at the Northwest Tarot symposium.  

Now today, Nancy's going tell us more about this amazing experience that she created with a few of her beautiful Tarot students. And it's called The 22 Acts of Magic. Now, I don't want to give it all away, but it is, this experience that she created is this amazing spiritual journey, I guess, through the 22 Major Arcana cards using music, art, movement, reflection, visualization, and so much more. So I think you're gonna find this super, super juicy. Now, Nancy also talks a little bit about using more of your intuition as you learn and read the Tarot cards. And we talk briefly, before we get into the sort of guts of the conversation, we talk briefly around whether it's enough just to be tapping into your intuition or do you need to learn the traditional systems of the cards? Nancy's got some really interesting points of view that I think you're gonna enjoy. 

Now, before we get into today's interview, this podcast is brought to you by our very own Tarot Card Meanings Keyword Chart, which you can now download for free over at biddytarot.com/keywords. Now, if you've ever struggled to remember what the cards mean and you need to give your intuition a gentle nudge in the right direction, then make sure that you get this Keyword Chart. It included three or four keywords for every card, upright and reversed, and it's the perfect complement for you as you do your Tarot readings. So you can get it over at biddytarot.com/keywords. And remember, this is about giving your intuition a little gentle nudge. It is not about just doing a whole reading based on keywords because that would be dull and boring. But keywords can be great just for giving yourself that little bit of extra confidence. Yep, I've got this. Okay, I'm see the word “positivity,” right? What does that mean for me? And then your intuition will flow. So check it out. Biddytarot.com/keywords. 

All right, without further ado, let me welcome on Nancy Antenucci. So welcome Nancy. It is so good to have you here back on the Biddy Tarot Podcast again. How are you doing today? 

Nancy: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me again. 

Brigit: Awesome. Awesome. So for those who might not have heard your first episode, which was probably actually a year, maybe even a year and a half ago. 

Nancy: Yeah. 

Brigit: Can you please share a little bit about you and your awesome work that you do, particularly in the space of Tarot and even a little bit of that gorgeous interpretive dance that you do? 

Nancy: Yes. Well, I received my first Tarot deck when I was about nine. I didn't quite know what to do with them and they didn't come with a little white book, so there was no, I didn't think there were any definitions or rules. I just thought you were supposed to figure out all the pictures. And my mom and I were into all kinds of things like astrology, phrenology. But when she gave me the Tarot deck, she said “Now, if these work, I think I better take them.” You know? Because she was worried about me getting too … I don't know what she was worried about, but they worked right away. I took them to school and I did a show and tell with them. And they worked right away. And so she took them, and I'm kinda glad she did, because it was before internet and everything, so there wasn't really much information or support out there at all.  

So I didn't come back to my deck, I still have the same deck, but I didn't come back to it until my early twenties. And it was in a place where I just really needed a lot of mental and spiritual and emotional support. And the cards came right back into my life. And they've kind of glued me together and they keep me glued. So I feel like I have a very different relationship with Tarot in that they kind of saved me in a weird kind of way. So I do trust my relationship with them. And I don't see the Tarot itself as the divine power. I think that we're the divine having a human experience and the cards are this beautiful telephone. Like if I just get really stuck, I just call. I know who to talk to most of the time. 

Brigit: Yeah. 

Nancy: So then I started teaching. I thought oh! I got all cocky with it thinking hey, these work. And I started teaching other people and realizing wait, there's a whole system out there of traditional meanings and everything. And I thought instead of studying that, I would like to just play with others to see what we get. How far we go together. So I've always taught on some intuitive level. And then I went to New York and met other colleagues for the very first time after 10 or 15 years of doing it on my own. And I realized wow, there's some things that I was doing that I thought were incredibly innovative and brilliant and there were other things that it was like wow, Nance, you are really gonna have to change this, you know? Because you are so off-base. So there's pros and cons to working in solo. So ever since then, I've written a book, I've been teaching a lot of people. And now, I'm getting to a new place where I'm blending some of that dance and movement with Tarot. 

Brigit: Yeah. Awesome. I think you bring up something really interesting around whether it's enough to just be working intuitively with the cards versus do you need to understand all of the traditions, the origins, the history, the structure, the systems, and so on behind Tarot. 

Nancy: Yeah. 

Brigit: And I recently recorded an episode, I can't remember if it's gonna be playing after our interview or before, but I recorded a whole episode around this because I think it's just a really interesting question to ask and it's good to hear that you've come at it more from that intuitive place first and then you've layered on top the more traditional way of working with Tarot. I think oftentimes, more people go the other way. 

Nancy: Right. Exactly 

Brigit: Most people sort of book learn and then add the intuition. Do you feel that you had an advantage, I guess, having the intuitive piece done first and then applying the traditions? 

Nancy: Yep. 

Brigit: How does that work for you? 

Nancy: Absolutely, because I trust my initial trigger. I always trust my initial trigger. But I do tell people, like my students, it's like to me, the Tarot, each card is like a room in a house. So every experience you have with it, every definition you ever remember about it, any sequence that just jumped at you actually becomes an energy in that room. So it's almost like you're putting the wallpaper in and now you have the curtains and now you have the chair. So in some ways, the more you can learn about all methods, the more you have in your room. So when you walk into that room, you can use whatever you need. I think it comes up, like whatever that layer that needs to come to you will. Because I can read intuitively the entire reading, but sometimes cards will just say “No, really. I'm the Four of Pentacles. You have to read me like the Four of Pentacles!” You know? And it's like okay. Okay. 

Brigit: Yeah. And I love that house analogy because also, it's possible to live in a house or even like in a bedroom that just has the mattress. You don't need to have all the trimmings. 

Nancy: No. 

Brigit: And sure you might not have the fullest experience of having a gorgeous bedroom, but you've got a mattress, you can sleep there. 

Nancy: That's right. 

Brigit: And then over time, like I'm thinking the college student or the university student starts with a mattress and over time, they build up the room. They've got pretty pictures and stuff. And then it's more of a fuller experience. 

Nancy: Exactly. 

Brigit: Same with Tarot. 

Nancy: Yeah! 

Brigit: And same with learning about it. You sort of layer it up. But it doesn't mean that you can't read- 

Nancy: That's right. 

Brigit: Even if you've just got the mattress and the floor. 

Nancy: Or even nothing in the room. It's like okay I'm in a room. And it's like well, I gotta say something. So it's like even just walking in. So when I wrote Psychic Tarot: How to Use Your Natural Psychic Abilities to Read the Cards, and I don't define any cards. There's no definitions. And in fact, I thought to myself, “Can I get through this entire lifetime without ever defining the cards for anyone else?” Like that's a goal of mine. So I wanted to just make sure that people have a grasp, or at least, I'm sorry. At the beginning of the book, I started saying “Don't read any other books. Don't go on Google. Don't look at any definitions. For a year and a day, just trust what you see with the cards.” And if I was reading the cards again, or if I was writing the book again, I would probably say “Just do what you need to do. But only look up definitions if something just keeps standing out there and it's like you know what? I don't think I'm getting this card.” 

Brigit: Yeah. 

Nancy: You know? 

Brigit: That's good advice. 

Nancy: Yeah. Exactly. I would change that in my book.  

Brigit: Yeah. Because I do think the book serves a purpose. 

Nancy: Absolutely. 

Brigit: It absolutely does. And even in my own readings, I will sometimes refer to the book, especially with the deck that I love, Lumina Tarot, just looking over here, it's kind of next to it. Because I love Lauren's interpretation of the cards. Even just reading the words is a soul-healing process that I needed. And I can absolutely interpret it intuitively and then I get the soul healing of the words. So it's kind of a little bit of a balance really that you need. Yeah, neat. 

Awesome. Okay, so you've talked a little bit to, well, you sort of planted a seed around like Tarot and dance. I love that whole concept of what I would interpret as like embodiment of Tarot and bringing the energy of Tarot into your body and then probably through movement. So tell me just a little bit about how that works? 

Nancy: Well, first of all, I've been trained as a dancer. So since four years old, that was actually the first and initial career was to be a famous dancer. Not even just a dancer, Brigit. A famous dancer. I had a very particular job to fulfill for my mom. But I just decided, and I love music and I love my body. My body has a wisdom that has always overridden my very clever mind. SO that's helpful.  

And the thing I love about Tarot is that it is nonverbal. It is an image. Like you could define it with words or poetry or music, but I thought “What is happening? I love the physical world of it. I wanna be in it.” And so two or three years ago, I started going to a studio here in St. Paul and every Wednesday, from one to three, I just go in the studio, I lay the cards around me some way, and then I'm just trying to figure out how can I enter the cards physically without being a person in the card? You know? Like literally letting the energy of that card talk to me. And I realized, and I didn't have many breakthroughs at all. At all. 

Brigit: I was looking forward to the epiphany of the century. 

Nancy: I know. But I did have one, though. I tell you, I had one that cracked everything open, which was the Six of Cups. So I was really pissed that day and I said “Okay, no. Something has to happen here to my muse. Make something happen here, because otherwise, I'm not gonna keep doing this.” And I had picked the Six of Cups and I went “Okay. I'm just gonna stand here until I see something.” And I'm not kidding you, like the set piece of Six of Cups started moving in. Like you could see the beautiful wall and the village in the back and the flowers in the front. And I went “Oh my god. What will I do if I actually see the two little people come in?” But it wasn't. They're not there. It was just the energy of the card itself like I was in its landscape.  

And I'm standing there going “You know what? I don't want to see the people.” I know this sounds really kind of weird, but I don't care what primitive people or the early people thought about the world because they're not where we are. They're not dealing with Facebook and drones and bad water. And they're not dealing with the same kind of problems. So it's like I would spend all my time just catching them up to the hell that we've created. And I thought “No, yeah I don't really need to go there.” But when I standing in that landscape, I could smell earth and the sky felt different. And it was Earth when she was younger. And I went “Whoa, wait a minute. I could use that. Like that energy is something I need to know more about.” Like I personally think fairies and all of those are just really energy of Earth that are so beautiful and tangible that they're like magic to us, you know?  

So it's like that I could do. So that's where I think I came up with the idea of you know, each card itself is almost a portal. Like it can not necessarily bring you right back to that landscape, but bring you to an environment where you're going to get a very different insight or insights about being human and about why did I incarnate? And why are we here? So it cracked open just enough for me to go “Okay, I'll stay in!” 

Brigit: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. 

Nancy: But then, the workshop came from that. The 22 Magic Acts. I decided “Could I do this for other people? Could I kinda open up with visualization?” Because I love doing visualizations. Could I do a visualization where people could walk into the sphere of the card but in a bigger way? Like as if we were in a Tarot world. Not just that card, but the world of Tarot. Like if that was a different sphere. Like if there's heaven and hell, is there also like a Tarot world? Is there a Kabbalah world? 

Brigit: Yeah. 

Nancy:You know? I said “Are there other systems that could open up to us if we just, as spirits, just meandered around and tried to find?” 

Brigit: Yes. Actually, do you know what? I was just having a conversation with Eleanor, who created the Everyday Tarot Deck. So Eleanor and I have worked together to create this deck. And it's just made me think. So Eleanor, just her style of artwork, she didn't want to have eyes on the figures in the cards. And she was determined that they would not be actual people. She wanted them to be like figures, but not people. She didn't want to have anything that would be like oh, well there's my friend or my sister and so on. And the way that she was describing it was “I wanted it to be like Tarot is this kind of realm.” It's another realm. It's another kind of plane. It isn't like the real world. It is something on a whole different level. And now, hearing you also talking about this concept of a different Tarot world or a different Tarot realm, I think yeah, I'm just seeing that even more. So that's exciting.  

So tell me more. Like what's this concept of the 22 portals. How does this work? 

Nancy: Well, there were a couple things that went into it. First of all, the 22 acts of magic actually came from me trying to do collaborations with other people. And it just wouldn't manifest with others. So I kind of ended up with something and I went “Hey. Does anyone mind if I use this?” Like no one minded. So I just went “All right!” So what we did with the 22 Acts of Magic, which is a whole weekend workshop, is I went through The Fool's Journey from Amber Jayanti… or, I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name correctly. But she actually sees the Fool's Journey as our human development. So like the fool is the soul before it comes in. But the High Priestess is when you're about three or four years old. You're getting a lot of information in download, but you're nonverbal. You know? So it's like crazy. I love the way that she sees it as our human development. And then like further down, the Devil is you kinda purging. Or the Tower is you kinda purging the things that really don't serve you anymore. So it's more proactive, instead of something that happens to you. 

So I did that and people were … They just laid in restorative yoga poses. We did it at a big studio and they were laying in these restorative poses. So I knew their bodies were healing while I was doing this anyhow. And I have a suspicion some of them fell asleep, but that's okay.  

Brigit: The work happens when you're asleep. It totally does. 

Nancy: Yeah, I know. I said “I will budge you if you snore, but other than that, you just go ahead and go in.” And afterwards, at the very end, you end up at the world, seeing kind of this whole life if it manifested in a way where it was fearless. Where you really did your incarnation fully. And you could see her or him in front of you. That world image of you. The dancer was kind of dancing out in the world. So it's almost like the Fool steps off the cliff, and eventually, though, you get to the world, who knows how to dance in the middle of the universe in the sky.  

And people were … Our dialogue that came from that was so beautiful. Because some people were like “You know what? I don't remember anything before I was 16 years old.” That's kind of a flag, you know? Like wait, where was I? Or that one relationship was so painful, I just shut down and I'm not looking at anything I learned from it. So it was really helpful to kinda go wait. What if you're just an observer to your life? What if you're not judging it or fixing it or healing it? But you're simply just observing it with compassion? 

Brigit: Yeah. 

Nancy: And so then the next day, I did little mini readings for each of them with trying to figure out which Major Arcana or maybe two or three of them do you most need in your life right now? What magic do you need in your life right now? And we figured it out by two things. One, we did an inventory. I wrote down all the shadow sides of the Major Arcana without any labels. So they didn't know who it was. So like if you feel … Like one of them, for instance, was the Hierophant. The shadow of it is overly extravagant. So yeah, if you've been doing this lately, mark it down. So we could tell by the shadows which Major Arcana are out of balance for them. So that might be a way to know which magic you need, because you're out of wack. 

Or like the fool is like depending on everybody else's directions but your own. Like it's just the shadow of it. So then I told them which Major Arcana from their kind of personal shadow list, which ones that need kind of balanced or at least looked at. But then we did little mini-readings, too, to find out what are they craving? What do they desire? What do they want? You know? So if any Major Arcana showed up, I always paid attention. It was very random that way. Like synchronicity to find out the Major Arcana. But I just did this as a hindsight, Brigit, and it kind of like blew my mind how it all developed. I just had them pick one Minor Arcana randomly. And that's the card that they would enter all of the travel world with. That one Minor Arcana.  

So that night, when I started doing the visualizations, we did them in groups of seven. Like Fool through Chariot. And we did them in sequences. So to follow the three lines of not necessarily child, adolescent, and adult. That was the night before. But this one was more what you're learning, how you integrate it to this world, and how you overcome all old patterns and go into that spiritual level. So we kinda did it in a sequence of three lines that Rachel Pollack teaches quite beautifully. Well, several people teach that quite beautifully. When we did the Minor Arcana, when they were all in their restorative poses, and some people journaled. I told people “You can move if you want.” Because I had music or sound for each of the Major Arcana to bring you in. I wanted all of the senses stimulated.  

But what we did too was make little portable alters for each Major Arcana. And it was, my group of people, Twin Cities Tarot Collective, all of us took different major alters and we just kinda decided they'd all be kind of small but they'd all have candles. They'd all have some little gift that could put in your full bag. You know? But more than that, it would hopefully be something beautiful that you could just meditate on. So I would do the journey. And the Minor Arcana is the one that brought you into the Tarot world. So let's say like that … which one's the Seven of Pentacles? Is that the guy? No. The Eight of Pentacles is the guy working at the bench? 

Brigit: Yeah. 

Nancy: Yeah. So let's just say you're the Eight of Pentacles. So you're there. And I said “Now, just listen to the sound you're making. You're in your room. What are you doing in there?” Now it just expands out to a whole world out there. So go out. And then the Fool's dog came and got you and then started the journey. So each one would … I put the music on for the Magician. Here we go into the forest. But then, I would turn the music off and people either journaled about what they got in the journey, or they'd go up to the altar. Or they would just move around. So they had like 10 to 15 minutes for each Major Arcana.  

Brigit: Yeah. 

Nancy: I had to kind of limit it a little bit. But honestly, what I would love to do, now that we did this first one to see how it went. And they were so excited. I felt like all of us did some pioneer work with each other. That we would love to do like a Wednesday through a Sunday but have all the altars set up in a beautiful old house that you could go to any time and that we could do long things and then go away or eat together and then sleep. And then come back and just really dive in and have a long, luxurious. This was a little bit more wham, bam, thank you ma'am. You know? It kinda had to be.  

But at the end, from all the messages you got, you had to come up with what one action or behavior would you commit to? And we had the person stand in the middle and all the rest of us stood in a circle. And they said out loud what they would commit to. And all of us blessed them. You know? We just blessed, said their name three times and said “May it be.” You know? So it was very powerful. I wanted it to go beyond just kind of self introspection. It's wait. How do you bring this into the world because holy cow, the world needs us. 

Brigit: That's for sure. 

Nancy: So it's a real act of bridge to the world somehow. And for some people, it was just I need to dance everyday. Like that would actually help the world a lot more if you weren't struggling with your dark forces. 

Brigit: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness, Nancy, I love how your brain works and how like the things you can create. 

Nancy: Thank you! 

Brigit: Absolutely magical. So good. And what I think I'm getting so excited about is I love it when we go beyond just here's your Tarot card. This is what it means. 

Nancy: Right. Right. 

Brigit: When we are integrating it as a system. Not even a system. I don't even have words around it. It's like a whole … It's the realm thing. It's a whole different realm. 

Nancy: That's right. 

Brigit: And using it as that guidance. I was even thinking it's kind of like … I've never done one, so I shouldn't be commenting on this. But I imagine like a soul regression could be something like this. 

Nancy: Absolutely. 

Brigit: Where you're almost taking your could back to the very beginning and you're leading it on a powerful journey all the way through those Major Arcanas to the world where it can finally be fully expressed in its fullest version of itself. 

Nancy: Absolutely. And even studying this, I learned so much by research in that the Fool … Here's a theory that I absolutely love. And I'm not sure who to ascribe it to. I'm sorry I don't remember right now. But the Fool is our soul. The Magician is the code. Our unique, expressive code that needs to come through this incarnation. Only we could give this or express this certain code. And the High Priestess is the memory to the source. So those three together kinda travel, I think, throughout the entire line of just this beautiful hybrid that we are as human and spirit.  

Oh, but god, Brigit. This is what I wanted to tell you. At the end of the journeying, before we got to the blessing, I got directed to kind of say “Okay, now bring them back to their minor arcana scene.” But everything changed. It's like the eight of pentacles, I was just gonna say “Okay, now you're back into … Let's leave the world there. Go back to that beautiful space that you began in.” But it became so evident to me that everything had changed because of the journeys that we'd been through. That I felt like the message was do you get it? This is the part that matters. Not all that highfalutin magic that you guys were in, but how you're gonna bring it to your everyday life. 

Brigit: Yes. 

Nancy: And I am never gonna see the minor arcana the same after this. Like I actually think the minor arcana is what I really need to journey through more fully. You know? Like our everyday life is a journey through minor arcana. But it usually doesn't get the kinda … I don't know. It doesn't get the street cred that major arcana gets. 

Brigit: Yeah, yeah. 

Nancy: You know? And now I'm like “Oh my god. What?” You know? And they're like “Yeah!” So anything you got across the veil there, if you can't really bring it into your real life, it doesn't matter what was shown to you. 

Brigit: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 

Nancy: And I went oh. I tell people that too. Like when I read for people. You can tell sometimes, some clients are … I call them hoarders. Like they're hoarding information or they're hoarding insights for themselves instead of like yeah, but what are you gonna do with that? Like because if you're not gonna do anything with it except for keep gathering it, I'm telling you, that information's just gonna fly right back behind the veils because that's where it wants to be. It doesn't want to be … Unless you're integrating it, it wants to go back to where it actually can be vital and alive. 

Brigit: Yep. 

Nancy: Not your closet. 

Brigit: Yeah. Actually, do you know what? Have you read Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert? 

Nancy: Not yet! Not yet. 

Brigit: Oh, please do. You'll love it. So she has a concept in there about where … She'll have better words around it. But basically, you can have this little idea floating around. And you might catch that idea. And you might play with it. And then you have a decision. Am I gonna do something with that idea, or am I not? And she had a story of where she had the idea for a book and she just sat with it. She didn't really start writing it. And 10 years had gone past and then she still hadn't done anything. And then she met another writer. And they said “Oh, I'm working on a book. It's this kind of story.” And Elizabeth's like “Oh, that was my story.” And then she realized that actually, because she hadn't done anything with the idea, it had gone off and found another person who could actually bring that idea into being and fully manifest it. Which, to me, is also a bit of that magician energy as well. 

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. Neil Gaiman, who is an author, says that too. He said “A great idea will come to five of us.” So which one is gonna do it? You know? And it's like oh. There's some pressure. 

Brigit: Yeah. And I think like it's the same with spirituality, divine guidance and so on. Like yeah, you could go “Oh, I feel something. I feel something coming through.” But unless you're in there taking action, bringing it into the everyday, it's almost a waste. And even having these intense spiritual experiences, which might be a workshop or a meditation retreat, or what have you. If you just have the experience there and you don't do anything with it, it's like it was a moment in time. But it's how do you extract that and then bring it into your everyday practice? Yeah, it's neat. 

Nancy: Yeah. We don't want, especially in the kind of condition the world is in now where there is a lot of uncertainty. If nothing else, it's just a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of people that we can't. Nope. We don't have the world that we just assumed 20 years ago. We don't have that world right now. So how are you going to feel powered with that? How are you gonna make sure that love is the power, not fear? How can you stay? So divination cannot be a lovely distraction right now. We can't afford to be distracted, you know? Because there's so much creativity and love that wants to flow through us if we weren't so scared. So how do you get not so scared? And it's like well, you play, you write, you create art, you make beautiful things. You face the things in you you don't wanna face. But you do it in a way where you feel safe and supported and transform it. You know, I just think god. I love Tarot. I just feel like it is the blueprint of being a good human, you know? 

Brigit: Yes. Yes. 

Nancy: It's the blueprint. 

Brigit: Isn't it amazing? 

Nancy: It is! It is. And I know some people really learn and get as much juice out of Kabbalah. But I just, I need the stories of Tarot. The stories of Tarot. And I need all 78 of them, you know, that each one of them is kind of an aspect for me. In the realm of learning how to be a great human, religion doesn't do for me what Tarot does.  

Brigit: Yeah, absolutely. And I think where it is really powerful is when it is fully integrated. So it's not just the little quick Tarot reading because you wanted to check out your cards and see what they have to say. It's how do you integrate this universal wisdom into, again, into the everyday life. Like just, I can't stop saying it. And like you were saying, divination's not a distraction. I think we should quote card that one, but it can't be that distraction. Because the implication of that is that it is a separate thing and you just do that on the side and that's your little frivolous fun thing that you can do. And now, let's go down with the real world. But I don't think that's how things operate. 

Nancy: That's right. 

Brigit: I think in this beautiful place that we know exists and it exists now, it's where it is fully integrated. 

Nancy: Yeah. 

Brigit: And it's happening at the same time that we're having our real world experience. It's a divine, real world experience. 

Nancy: Right. And I was just in Portland at the Northwest Tarot Conference. And for the banquet show, I just had people at different tables pull a card for each position of the Celtic cross and do a reading for the world for the year. You know? Like we as diviners even, how can we as a group give? There's an old saying: “If you wanna travel fast, go alone. But if you want to travel further, go with a group.” You know? And I thought how can we get a reading that would give … So I had everyone, I just asked for 10 movers. And I just said “Here. You're just gonna do a gesture.” And I helped them do a gesture for each of the cards that were picked. And then I just put music on and each one started their movement. And they looked like a little German clock. You know those little people that come out and go boop boop! Boop boop! And I just went oh my god, I don't want any words with Tarot. I just want movement with Tarot. I just want another nonverbal expression of it. 

Brigit: Yeah. I love it. So the workshop that you ran just sounds absolutely magical, pun intended, of course. But how could someone take, like what's one thing someone could do at home to kind of capture the essence of what you created in the workshop? 

Nancy: Oh, well I think the first thing that comes to my mind is to look at all of your major arcana. Just meditate, maybe make a big circle around you as you're sitting. And you're looking at each one of them and how they bring their magic to you. Take out all the ones that you absolutely love and adore and desire and know and they know you and you're all like chummy together. Like take them out. Then who do you have left. And then look through them and kind of find the one that you just don't want. You don't want them, you don't like them, maybe you don't even know them. You know, it's like ew, I don't even know what this is about. Or the one that disturbs you the most.  

And then create a beautiful altar. Like do some readings. Research them. What is the history of this card? How do different people look at it? What is that in my life right now? And create a beautiful little altar for it. And just every day, kind of try to see the beauty in it. What is the lesson or the mirror that you could … how could you be reflected by that power? Because chances are, if it disturbs you, I think it's a power within you that you're afraid to manifest or bring into the world. So it's like hey, we need to get fully powered. All of us. Anyone who's doing this kind of work. We gotta be, like I really believe there's no bench-sitting anymore. Like you're either playing ball or just go find some other sphere. Because we need you to play game, you know? You gotta be on your top, there. So that beauty and that altar creating might be a way for you to do that in a sacred way, but also, every day, you see it. 

Brigit: Yeah. Ugh, man. Nancy, you light me up. I love this. It's so good. It's beautiful. So dare I ask, what have you got coming up? What are you working on? 

Nancy: Well, besides my ascension that's happening next weekend … No, it is actually. Because I'm turning 60. And I decided, I didn't know, all my other plans fell through. Figure that. So I just thought what do I actually need to do? And I'm gonna do a dance. Like I asked my son to compose music for me. I'm gonna go into a studio. I'm gonna have some friends film it so that we can put it on Facebook or whatever. But I'm asking friends to come either as angels or devils. I don't care. And they're just gonna stand in the background or do weird poses or walk around. You know? So I wanna start my 60 with a dance of I'm dancing with my devils and angels now. 

And then I go to Detroit and I'm teaching the six principles of divination that I have kind of outlined in my book. And I'm doing an Arts Crawl here in St. Paul. And I'm gonna do this new character that I'm calling Madam Zella. And she's like a Tarot witch. So like she has a Tarot booth, but she comes out and the chair in front of the person who pays for that, or rings my bell, really … I'm gonna come out, have them pull one card, and then put some cool music on and just dance around them and put this Tarot spell, you know give them the Tarot magic of that card. And I have no idea what that's gonna turn out like. But I'm already so excited about it. Because I'm gonna be using The Cure and just really cool music.  

I'm just gonna have fun with that and just … because I want to blow people's minds about Tarot. I'm tired of people just sitting there just being passive with their magic. And it's like no children! Wake up! You're as magical as me, as the next the next one. You know? Like I said we gotta get the fire up. 

Brigit: Yeah. I love the way your brain works. So creative.  

Nancy: Thank you, Brigit. 

Brigit: So exciting. Awesome. So Nancy, where can people find out more about you? 

Nancy: I think my website's probably the best. It's www.betweenworlds.us. US. And it has my contact information there and stuff. 

Brigit: And do you also post information about your events on your website? 

Nancy: I will eventually. Yeah I still have to get my calendar in there, but I will soon. Yeah. 

Brigit: Do it. Do it because that is the stuff. That's how you're getting the impact out there. 

Nancy: Yes! Thank you. 

Brigit: Taking action and all of that. 

Nancy: I'm taking note right now. 

Brigit: Good. 

Nancy: Put in calendar! Yes. 

Brigit: Awesome. And I'm sure by the time this podcast gets published, because we record a fair bit ahead of time, that will be already up and running and that you'll be able to see all the events. 

Nancy: Yes. 

Brigit: Yes. 

Nancy: That would be great. 

Brigit: Because I'm sure like … The work that you're doing with Tarot is just so inspirational, visionary, creative, beautiful. And I know so many people would benefit from having that kind of experience with you. So please make sure it's out there. 

Nancy: Thank you. 

Brigit: And readily available. 

Nancy: Thank you. Thank you, Brigit. That is cool. And I gotta figure out a way to do this kind of online. Because of people that, I want anyone, wherever they are, to be able to kind of be the Tarot magician they are. So it's like I've gotta figure out a way to translate this online. But right now, I just feel like I just figured out some stuff in the lab. 

Brigit: Oh, that's exciting. I can't wait to see what comes next. 

Nancy: Oh, thank you.  

Brigit: So thank you so much for today and yeah, take care. 

Nancy: Oh, thank you so much for having me. 

Brigit: My pleasure. 

So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Nancy and I. I tell you what, I was lit up after that conversation. Just blows my mind how creative Nancy is and also just the huge possibility and opportunity with Tarot and how deep it can take us. But just like Nancy said, we need to be compelled to action. If we're just using this as a fun experience, it's only taking it so far. And I really do believe like Nancy does that it is time to step up. It is time to take action from an intuitive and inspired place. So I hope there is at least one thing that you can take away from today's conversation. 

Now as a reminder, make sure you also download your free Tarot Card Meanings Keyword Chart over at biddytarot.com/keywords. This is a great resource, particularly if you are on the newer side to Tarot and need a little bit of extra support every now and then to jog your memory or, even better, to gently nudge your intuition. So check it out. Biddytarot.com/keywords.  

Now next week, we are going to be talking a lot about intuition. And just like we started to touch on in this interview, I go into a lot more depth about is intuition enough to make you a good Tarot reader, or do you need to have a really strong understanding of the systems and the traditions, the origins of Tarot? So we're gonna explore that topic next time.  

For now, take care and I look forward to chatting with you soon. Bye for now. 

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