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BTP127: Connecting Astrology and Tarot with Debra Silverman

By May 22, 2018 November 28th, 2022

astrology and tarot debra silverman

The incomparable Debra Silverman has been described as part psychologist, part comedian, part astrologer, and 100% real.  I was first drawn to her hilarious and incredibly accurate YouTube videos that personify each of the zodiac signs. 

In addition to her highly successful YouTube channel (which has over 7 million views), Debra has run a private practice for over 40 years helping people step into their power.   She was originally trained as a therapist and psychologist, but now incorporates her own astrology inspired system “The Four Elements” into helping people all around the world achieve their full potential. 

In this episode of the Biddy Tarot Podcast, you’ll learn all about: 

  • Debra’s expert opinion on where Tarot and astrology intersect 
  • How you can take your Tarot knowledge and turn it into astrology knowledge 
  • And the reverse, how you can use your knowledge of astrology to enhance your Tarot practice.



You’re listening to the Biddy Tarot Podcast, and this is Episode 127: Astrology and Tarot with Debra Silverman.  

Welcome to the Biddy Tarot Podcast, where you’ll learn how to connect more deeply with your intuition and live an empowered and enlightened life with the Tarot cards as your guide. 

Listen as Brigit and her guests share their very best tips and strategies to help you read Tarot with confidence. Now, here is your host, Brigit Esselmont.  


BRIGIT: Hello, and welcome back to the Biddy Tarot Podcast. As always, I’m super excited to be talking with you all about Tarot and today—all about Tarot and astrology. 

Now, I’ve first came across our guest when my business manager, Kim, said to me, “Brigit, you’ve got to check out these videos. If you want to learn anything about astrology, check out Debra Silverman and her videos on YouTube.” 

I went over, and I found the first one. Of course, being a Taurus, I thought, “Great. Let’s start with Taurus.” I watched this amazing video where Debra

embodies the Taurean and acts as if she is a Taurus. I was in so much laughter, just watching this and so engaged. 

Debra has a special sort of magic about her when she teaches all about astrology. She’s incredibly engaging and incredibly passionate about her work. So, when I found out that Debra is not only an astrology expert but also loves to read Tarot, I had to have her here on the podcast.  

If you don’t know Debra Silverman already, she is a part comedian, part psychologist, part astrologer, and 100% real. Debra has been in private practice for over 40 years, and she uses astrology and her own system called “The Four Elements” as tools to help people step into their power. Debra’s mothering approach to understanding people has earned her international fame and admiration. She’s written a book, magazine columns, hosted a radio show, and has that awesome YouTube channel with over 7 million views. She’s an expert in embracing the feminine, and her dream is to revolutionize therapy by teaching therapists how to provide custom treatment to their clients. You’ll hear more about this from Debra, but she was originally trained as a psychologist and therapist, and was drawn to astrology because of its grounding in her science. Also, from the outset, she’s always had an interest in Tarot.  

Debra is going to be talking a bit more today about where astrology and Tarot intercept. She certainly opened my eyes in terms of, if we already know a lot about Tarot, we actually already know a lot about astrology, and Debra is going to show us exactly how we can take our Tarot knowledge and turn it into astrology knowledge. Not only does this open you up to a whole new way of looking at the world, but it also makes you a better Tarot reader. And again, Debra is going to talk more about that, about what do we need to know about astrology in order to become really rock-solid Tarot readers. 

All right, I’m not going to give away any more hints about today’s conversation. Let’s just get straight into it. 


BRIGIT: Welcome, Debra. It’s an absolute pleasure to have you here on the Biddy Tarot Podcast. How are you doing today?  

DEBRA: I’m having so much fun already.  

BRIGIT: Yay! Awesome. And you’re over in Hawaii. We were just remarking before we jumped on to the podcast how funny it is that we’re almost like 24 hours separate.  

DEBRA: You should be the astrologer—you’re in the future.  

BRIGIT: That’s why I’m in Tarot. It’s fabulous. 

DEBRA: I can see the future.  

BRIGIT: Beautiful. Debra, you’re obviously a very well-known astrologer, and I think what’s really special and unique about you is you are not only into astrology, but you are also a trained therapist and, I would say, a little bit of a comedian as well. Tell me a little bit about your story and how you came to find astrology in your life.  

DEBRA: You know, it’s funny because I started with the Tarot. Well, that’s not true. When I was really young, I fell in love with astrology at a very young age, not knowing that it was my calling, but clearly being driven by some inner call, because I saw it in the comics and the Detroit News. 

I must have been about ten years old. It said to write away to get your chart. This is probably… I’m going to give away my time. It was 1967, before you were even conceived. I was writing away, and I got this chart in the mail. I remember being super excited, and I opened up the chart, and it was the wrong birthdate, and I was too young to send anything back because I didn’t know how to do that. But obviously, something was calling me then. So, that my first. 

Sometimes you have a feeling you want to play music, or you want to sing, or you want to be an actress, or you want to be a mom—those kinds of quiet callings. Astrology was calling my name very young. 

Then fast forward, I met my first astrologer when I was in my early 20s—probably many of you out there are just waking up to your spiritual self—and this extreme experience happened where a woman came to my house, and I had the classical American Jewish… Like Wooden Allen would have had a party with my house because they all looked like little characters out of a movie set, and she opened up an ephemeris, which is an astrology book of where all the planets are and she went around the table to each person, and I was like, “How did she do that?” 

At the end of the story, we left that house. It was a Jewish holiday. She came home with me, we got in the carriage, she was an astrologer, and I said to her, “What was that?” 

She said, “Well, that’s called astrology.” 

And I was like, “I want to learn that.” 

And then she had to drive across Canada, and she needed someone to sit in the car, and I said, “I’ll do it under one condition. Teach me what you did that night at dinner.” 

She had a stack of books in the backseat, all these astrology books, and I had a notebook, and all I did was to say to her, “OK, go. Twelve signs, ten planets—how is this?” 

By the second day, she was like, “Can you please open a book?” 

And I was like, “No. I’m an auditory learner. Just keep talking.” 

And by the time we were done… That was my only teacher—I shouldn’t tell people this—that I ever had. 

But then fast forward again another year, and I met a Tarot teacher, a very famous psychic who was in People magazine. She was very well-known in Hollywood. I was living in L.A., and she took me under her wing and taught me the Tarot deck, which was (is) directly related to the signs, so I combined the two at a very young age. 

It’s so funny to think back because I was so young. You know how that is, when you’re starting to call your destiny saying your name, but what do you know? We didn’t have the internet. We didn’t have Biddy Tarot. We didn’t have Debra Silverman. I just was all out there by myself, floating around, but I kept bumping into astrology and Tarot, and I have never, ever, ever grown old of it to this minute. I’ve always been fascinated by both of them.  

BRIGIT: Actually, I’m curious. Obviously, your core focus for your site is astrology. Why has Tarot not been in the spotlight for you? 

DEBRA: It’s a great question. I found, because I am classically trained in psychology (I did my master’s degree in clinical psychology), Tarot is not a popular word. It was a bad enough thing to say “astrology,” but astrology is based on hard science. I mean, it is based on astronomy. It includes a lot of math, a lot of calculations. To execute a chart takes hours. Tarot was like this magical door that I happen to trust because, like you, it’s very much your school. 

I gave away a thousand free readings when I first found the Tarot. I was obsessed with it, but I did not feel as academic. As a high achiever, I have kind of a personality type that has to be really good at what I do, and the Tarot didn’t leave me with anything for some reason. It’s not true, but at that time, it felt like, academically and professionally, I couldn’t go out into the world without that psychology degree to make astrology credible. But to talk about Tarot at that time was even more risky than talking about astrology. 

BRIGIT: And I’d be interested in just following that line of conversation. Do you feel that Tarot has changed and evolved over time? Do you think it’s starting to gain more credibility than perhaps what you perceived a little while ago? 

DEBRA: I think the Tarot has been a wealth, a treasure chest, of wisdom. Do you know that George Bernard Shaw said that if he was put away in a desert island to live, the two things he’d want? Do you know the story? 


DEBRA: One was a Bible and the other was a Tarot deck.  

BRIGIT: Get out! How do I not know this? That’s great.  

DEBRA: He didn’t want to live without the metaphorical. The way that I teach it (and the way that I learned it) was that the Tarot is the evolution of consciousness. It’s the way the evolving of consciousness occurs from the Fool to the World. That whole story is a progression, and so he was right to say, “You can see, as an evolved being, where you are in your evolution based on…” I mean, I know your audience is doing this—to consistently pay attention to the Tarot is as good as paying attention to your chart. 

But back to your question, I was a little… I want to say, self-conscious or embarrassed to be a psychic, and I felt much more acknowledged and credible to be a therapist that kind of secretly used astrology. [inaudible [00:10:00] My dear friend, Colette Baron-Reid, who does the Oracle cards… There are many doorways. The people that are doing the Tarot, including you, and so many others are now bringing it to the public. It was a secret. For a long time, the Tarot was done behind closed doors, and women were terrified. 

Astrology, on the other hand, was done behind the king’s chambers. Think about the difference between astrologers, who were all men, and Tarot readers and gypsies and seers, who were mostly women. So now, I’m just getting so that I’m speaking to you… My male side, my academic, very strong need to speak to mainstream, I didn’t want to be “woo-woo.” And so now, the thought of the Tarot being reintroduced into astrologers, and to be brought back with its respect, I’m devoted to the Tarot cards. I spent many, many years, every single day, picking a card to know what my day was like. I have not done it so much anymore.   

BRIGIT: I would be so curious then to know if you think that Tarot will be featuring more in what you teach in astrology. 

DEBRA: In my future self (since you’re there already, 24 hours ahead of me), yes, I first wanted to give my audience a substantial foundation with astrology. I teach it in a very simple way, but it does require homework. It’s a little different than with the Tarot. 

The Tarot does require homework. You got to memorize all those cards, and then you got to use your right brain. You get to imply, from the input, flavor and the rhythm and the energy. Astrology is a lot of pure content that requires memorization and math. Now, you don’t have to do the math anymore, ladies. Don’t worry about it. It all gets done with a button now. You push a button and have it, and in one second, the chart’s up. 

However, I’m going to say to you, you who are in the future, in the future, Tarot and astrology should be best friends, and it should be required on both sides that to be a really good Tarot reader, you need to know the cycles astrologically, and to be a really good astrologer, you need to know the implications of the unconscious mind, the synchronistic magic of the Tarot. Both are required.  

BRIGIT: Yeah, yeah. Well, thank goodness you are in this podcast because my next question is, as Tarot readers, what do we need to know about astrology to help us become better Tarot readers? What would be one or two things that you think are essential to know for Tarot readers from the astrological world? 

DEBRA: That’s such a great question. I would say the first thing is there’s something called the Saturn cycles. Most people know about Saturn return. That’s like becoming a more and more common word. All that means is when you were born, Saturn was in one spot and then 30 years later, 28 to 30, it comes back to the exact same spot, and then 28 to 30 years later, it comes back and Saturn return. We usually have two in a lifetime that are significant, and those markers for a Tarot reader, you know… 

Now, every seven years, by the way, after that, there’s a Saturn cycle, so 28 to 30, and let’s just say, 37, 44, 51, 58… It gives and takes, but you should know, as a Tarot reader, like, “Oh my god, they’re in a Saturn cycle, and they’re coming to get a reading? That is the most fertile myrtle moment where you can’t help but change.” 

Now, if they’re not in the Saturn cycle and they’re coming to have a Tarot reading and they’ve come for the third time to you and you’re like, “You know what, they didn’t listen the first time, they didn’t listen the second time, and I’m not sure I want to give them another reading,” you bet they’re going to listen when they’re in the Saturn transit. That gives them the wind in their sails to push them into change without effort. Change doesn’t happen for most people without crisis or a Saturn cycle; crisis usually occurs during a Saturn cycle.    

BRIGIT: That’s interesting. OK, beautiful. What would be another thing that we really must know about astrology to be wonderful Tarot readers? 

DEBRA: Very simply, if you know the elements (which you’ve looked at my book The Missing Element), the Tarot cards are built on the four elements, the Magician. The first thing that happens is you incarnate through the Fool. You’ve got to be stupid to even come into a body. What were you thinking? You must have been crazy to want to come onto this planet. 

And the first stop is the Magician. And on the Magician’s table are four elements. In order to play the Tarot, you must know the mastery of each element and what the teachings are and how to reframe. Like when we see the Nine of Swords, everybody goes, “Huh.” Well, that’s not true. That’s an old story. It’s not at all what’s true from the new story, from the wisdom of the elements. The Nine of Swords is a great card because now, your mind (air—always the swords are air)… 

You must know this: Pentacles are earth, Swords are air, Wands are fire, and Cups are water. It’s kind of simple, and that was all based on the four elements. The whole Tarot system is based on the four elements, so you must know the four elements. You want to know, “Oh, I see in this reading the distribution of elements that’s showing up in my Celtic cross or whatever.” I don’t know, do you use Celtic cross? 

BRIGIT: Now and then. Yup. 

DEBRA: What’s the most of the one that you teach? 

BRIGIT: Well, I actually teach folks to choose what feels best for them, and often, a no-spread spread is something I really enjoy, just where you’re actually drawing maybe three cards and then it’s kind of leaning into the next part of that reading.  

DEBRA: Right, that’s so great. Even in that case, you pay attention to the elements. Do not neglect the patterns. If there’s fire and air in your reading, that’s a high-level energy. If it’s earth and water, you’re coming down to the earth realms. You want to learn the elements. 

The short answer is Saturn cycles would be the first thing I’d pay attention to, for sure. Second is the elemental distribution of the client that’s coming to see you, and how do you help them get comfortable with what cycle they’re in based in the elements, but more importantly, is that the astrologer is comfortable inside your own skin. 

BRIGIT: Yeah, so that’s what I found really interesting about your book, was that this concept was sort of leaning towards certain elemental construction, I supposed you could say. I was reading through, I’m like, “I’m definitely an earth.” And from what I know of you, Debra, you’re in the fire space. But you talk about this concept of being aware of that but also being aware of the element that maybe is not as present, the missing element.   

DEBRA: And, you know, the book… 

BRIGIT: That’s it. And I can really say that they’re also coming into a Tarot reading, you know, what is the missing element when you’re doing a Tarot reading? And how does that relate to the particular situation? I think what’s lovely about the elements in particular, particularly when we’re talking about Tarot and astrology, is that such a clean segue between the two. As soon as you know the four elements, you’ve got a good grasp on a fair bit of Tarot, and you’ve got a good grasp on a fair bit of astrology. Of course, there’s a lot more that goes on around that, but it’s this nice little segue, this nice little bridge between those two philosophies.   

DEBRA: I think that’s where you and I really get along, because I can see by your chart how practical you are, and I am similar. Of course, the stars go on forever in every direction. The sky is the limit—have you heard of that term? But we don’t want to get carried away; we want to be able to focus. 

To do magic, to be a Magician, to deal with that first card, if you want balance… I was taught to find the card that calls your name and put it up in your fridge, put it in the car, put in the mirror, in the bathroom, put it in the mirror on your computer—keep that energetic. So, the Magician in this conversation, we would have him sitting up front. How am I going to master the four elements? And how will I integrate the lessons that we’re talking about with astrology, the Saturn cycle? 

I think there is a video that you could probably request that we could give to you that will explain the 7-year cycles because if you get that one simple thing without knowing astrology and its complexity, but… Am I in the 7-year cycle? How do I know? Well, wherever your Saturn is, every 7 years, the Saturn in the heavens will square it. It will do a 90-degree angle. It goes 7 years old, 14 years old, 21 years old, and at 28, it comes back. Every 7 years, it does that 90-degree angle. That’s the short version, but in order to learn that and apply to the Tarot—oh, my God—that would be such a powerful, helpful tool. And then to know your missing element. Those are really the two things.  

BRIGIT: And then, of course, there’s a lot of connection with the Major Arcana. Oh, I hope I keep my phrasing right here, but the astrological… Is that connection directly with the houses or the planets? You know the planets, right? 

DEBRA: OK, ready? This is going to be very simple, and this is an “Aha!” moment. There are 22 Major Arcana. There are 12 signs, and 10 planets.  

BRIGIT: OK, good.  

DEBRA: And this was done in the 15th century. I don’t know—what do you believe, Biddy? When do you believe that the Tarot was first designed? 

BRIGIT: Yeah, I would say, I mean it’s such an evolution, and what we have now is a very evolved thing, but you have 14th, 15th century, we can certainly see when Tarot started to come into being. But I think it’s definitely changed over that time. 

DEBRA: OK, but listen to this. It’s so bizarre. The 22 Major Arcana, which were taken out of the deck, you know, when you play cards, it’s a 52 cards because… Is it 52? Is that what it is?  

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BRIGIT: 56, I think. 

DEBRA: 56, that’s it. That’s right because there’s 22 Major Arcana and 56 cards. But when you take out the Major Arcana, and there’s no longer any of the spiritual, that was the spiritual door. The 22 of them are, each card has a planet or a sign related to it, but they didn’t know about Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, or they couldn’t see before the 15th century, but they left out… For example, Pluto is the planet in our system that rules death, and that’s what rules the Death card. And Neptune was only found in the 1780s, and they left out the Hanged Man who is upside down, which is Neptune turning everything upside down. 

The interesting part is you only understand deeply Tarot and the cards when you begin to understand the planets and the signs. And then when you know them both, it’s like… I look at the card, the Hanged Man, and I think Neptune. They’re so interrelated for me, and I know so much about Neptune, and then I know so much about the Hanged Man, and suddenly the door opens, and there’s a treasure chest of magic that unfolds because I’m accessing not just the card but this incredible archetype. It’s an encyclopaedia of ancient wisdom.   

BRIGIT: Again, that’s what I think. There are kind of these little easy ways of getting to know one to the other, right? Elements was one, and then, with the Majors, it’s interesting because I’ve always steered away from astrology. I’ve got the books, I can see them from here, and I think, “Oh, man. It’s all a new system,” and like you, I need to be expert from day one, right, and I get frustrated I can’t learn it.   

DEBRA: I can teach it to you because of the way you think. You’re very practical, and you’re very systematic. In my whole way of teaching, I really want to give you the school as a gift, to do it together with you because your mind… Well, for one thing, you know the Tarot so you automatically know the 12. You’ll be so amazed at how significant the relationship is between each card and each sign. 

BRIGIT: And that’s what excites me is that when I think it’s going to be really challenging and difficult to learn astrology, I actually don’t think it will be because of that connection point between Tarot and astrology. 

And I’m sure for the folks listening as well, you know, if you’re sitting there thinking, “Oh, I’ve been thinking about astrology. Do I do it? Do I not do it?” Well, I think this is a big fat yes because knowing Tarot is going to make it so much easier to get a grip on what astrology really is and in ways that I think just will blow your mind. And how can they not then just support each other? I think for you, in particular, having knowledge of both spheres, just being able to bring that together, there’s no doubt, just beefs up one to the other and then the other to the other.  

DEBRA: It’s kind of like I tell everybody that yoga and astrology are also best friends. If you write down “yoga,” it ends with an A; if you write “astrology,” it ends with a Y. They’re just one word, yoga and astrology. They’re both ancient sciences. Yoga takes you into your body, and astrology takes you into your soul. The Tarot and astrology are best friends on another angle, because to use the Tarot without understanding the timing from the cosmic, which is very simple… 

You know the problem with astrology, because I’m a little slow—you can’t tell because I talk fast, but I’m a little slow. You are too. What the word [inaudible [00:22:58]. What I mean by “slow” is I learn things experientially. If someone shows me the Tarot, which is how I learned it, but I had the best teacher, and I got in to every single card, and they became my friends, and I felt them and smelled them and touched them and kissed them, those cards became my best friends. And of course, when you turned one over single day for years, you just know the cards like the back of your hand. But it took me experience. 

The same is true with astrology. We teach that the first level is all about you studying your chart. Well, what’s more interesting than you? Raise your hand if you have an ego. Oh, look, everyone is raising their hand. The first class is learning astrology… It becomes fascinating when it’s all about you.     

BRIGIT: Beautiful. Let’s say, for Tarot readers… I mean we’ve talked a bit about making sure we’re across the Saturn cycles, the elements, and the astrological connections with Major Arcana. Is there a particular entry point that is helpful for people when it comes to astrology? And actually, I’m going to guess, it’s your own birth chart, isn’t it then? How you can learn to read your own birth chart? Where do people begin? How do people start? 

DEBRA: I think the first thing you do… You’re right. The first thing you do is you go on Astro for free,, and you click on Free Horoscopes in the left-hand corner. And then in the left-hand corner, it’ll say Chart Drawing, and you put in your birthday, time, and place, and up comes this funny looking chart. I wish I had your chart or I could get it for you. Up comes Biddy’s chart.  

The first thing you do is look at and go, “What was that? It’s a picture of the sky in a circle with 12 pieces of a pie.” Literally, it’s a circle, and then you don’t know what you’re looking at. Good news is there’s a little English side thing where it says, “The sun is in Taurus,” and I think you’re in double Taurus, “and the moon is in Taurus,” and it gives you some information. 

But the easy thing to start with is to… My suggestion is, you go online to one of my certified astrologers, and you say, “Just give me an hour-long reading, and let me begin to see the information.” 

See, I’m experiential. If you’re on a phone with a certified astrologer that I trained, and they’re brilliant… I’m rigorous. I don’t do anything that makes things easy on people because I’m a quality control person. But they will be able to look at you… And then you hear somebody say, like in your case, Biddy, you’re super quality control. You can’t stand mediocrity, right? One of your big things? 

BRIGIT: Yeah. 

DEBRA: And if something is not done right, you’re like, “Can we all slow down and do that again because that’s not going out?” I can only imagine the quality, like I can see how good you are at what you do. If you’re given permission in your first reading like, “OK, Biddy, guess what? We have to go really slow.” You have guilt-free cards to be super thorough, and do not ever let somebody make you rush. 

And you’re like, “Oh, that feels so good,” like the way you eat, the way you walk, the way you go into your bed at night, the rituals you do, everything, getting the kids up in the morning, slow it down. 

And then you’re like, “That’s a simple one indicator from looking at all your earth,” and that’s what happens with astrology. 

At the beginning I’d say, “You’re going to get your chart and look at it and think it’s Egyptian hieroglyphics,” and it is. 

Then you’re going to go, “How do I get more information?” 

And then you’re going to call someone, and then they’re going to go tell you in a very elemental way, “Here is your missing element, I’ll help you with that,” and then you go and start your research.  

BRIGIT: OK, yeah. Yeah, I see. It’s very similar to Tarot in that starting from that personal experience, your own personal chart and what that means, will start to teach to you through your personal lens, which will drop in a lot more than, let’s say, if you’re just reading a book. I think that’s why I’m freaking out every time I go to pick up just a book and go, “I can’t learn this.”  

DEBRA: I’m like, “Yeah, what did I just tell you?” The way I learned… There are all those books in the backseat. I never opened one. I’m an auditory learner. When I saw her do these charts of my family—this eccentric, wild family that I couldn’t even try to explain—I was like, “This is experience. This is not theory.” 

You need a direct experience. You are someone, and I’d love to give you a reading… You’re someone that needs to touch it. You can’t learn from a book. Then it will catch your attention because it’s so simple. That’s the other thing by the way. They make it seem so complicated. Those books complicate me. I can’t figure out those books.  

BRIGIT: Yeah. And I think just not having, like when I read it, I think, “OK, this information, I just have to memorize it,” which I get bored with.  

DEBRA: You want to touch it so the way that we teach it, the very first class of my school is the elemental class. It’s that simple, like, “OK, we now know you’re earth. We’re going to talk to you about earth,” like I’m doing here today. 

The second class is very simple, which you and I have something similar… Where’s your Mercury? How does your mind process? Well, you and I are similar. We process by concrete experience. We do not process from words. Well, that’s a wake-up call because in school they told me I was slow. I was like, “Are you trying to say I’m dumb, because I think you said it without saying it and now I’m feeling really bad?” That’s how I felt, like I’m a little slower, I guess. But that wasn’t what it was. I learned I had the most amazing memory of the Tarot cards, and my memory is so spooky, but it’s only when it’s relevant.  

BRIGIT: Absolutely. And I think what I love about like what I’ve seen of your videos on YouTube, I mean, of course, I watched the Taurus video, and it is an amazing experience, so you’ve got to watch Debra’s videos. Find your star sign, look up Debra Silverman, any star sign, watch the video because what you do is you start to embody that star sign, and you speak it as if that’s you. Oh, it’s just fabulous. Your whole mannerisms change to match that star sign, and it’s so relatable. It’s magical. I love that.  

DEBRA: You go on to YouTube, and you put in “Debra Silverman Taurus,” and then there’ll be a version that comes up. The way you’ll know it’s the one she’s referring to is it will be at least 300,000 hits. If it’s not 300,000 hits, it’s the wrong one. 

And then you watch that one, and it’s 5 minutes long, and you’ll be like, “Was she in my house this morning? Why does she do that?” And that was what I called public schizophrenia; I don’t know how that happened. 

I was so embarrassed, you’ll appreciate this, because I have enough Taurus in my chart to make me shy. You can’t tell. I was so embarrassed when I first produced them, and the person that did them made me watch them, and I was like, “I can’t. She looks nuts, this girl.” And for 5 years, I put them in a drawer, and then it was my first website and someone said to me, “Do you have any videos?” And I was like, “Well, I do but they’re embarrassing.” And I heard her in the other room hysterically laughing. And she was like, “Are you OK if I put this on YouTube?” And now they’re about 7 million hits, just those videos.  

BRIGIT: Yeah, crazy. And they are just absolutely brilliant.  

DEBRA: You love embodiment, because you love when something’s real.  

BRIGIT: Yeah, that’s true.  

DEBRA: Do you know about yourself? 

BRIGIT: Pardon? 

DEBRA: Do you know that about yourself, that you love when things are concrete or practical? 

BRIGIT: Yes. Yeah, I’m learning that a lot more particularly in the last few years. I definitely need to see it before I can go ahead with it. And I think that even like I’m even saying in a business, when people will just talk about something, I’m like, “No, no, just show me. Show me the whole thing, and then I can tell you if we’re going ahead with it or not.” 

DEBRA: That’s where the Tarot is so rich, because you look at those cards… You got to think about the history (I call it “herstory,” but it used to be history). Her story comes out of those cards, and they’ve been on this planet for now… I hate to compete, but astrology is 5,000 years old. But the two of them as friends… 

I have this fantasy—this is what I’ve made up—that there was this chamber somewhere in Europe where they gather all the wisdom keepers from astrology to the Egyptians, to the Chinese, to the Hebrews, to the Arabic, and they got into a cave, and they came out of the cave with this deck of cards.  

BRIGIT: I’m so with you. I just remember, once I really got to know the Tarot, I was absolutely just floored by the… I want to say the truth in the cards, the inside, like the integration of everything, as if like these 78 cards are just 78 pages of your whole life and the way that we live life. I think it’s absolutely stunning, just how much intelligence and knowledge is in the cards. It’s crazy.  

DEBRA: Listen, I love this part. The Fool is the first card, right? The zero card jumping into incarnation. And the first card, number 1, is the Magician, and there he sits with his four elements getting ready to download, connecting heaven and earth. You know how his hand is, and then the first stop (I love this) is the High Priestess, and he goes, “OK, everybody, stop. We must consult the wisdom of the feminine who doesn’t use words because it’s the Moon card, it’s the internal world, I’m going to go in now and I’m going to download.” 

And that’s so interesting that the Tarot was developed by respecting the feminine first. The Magician, he’s androgynous. The Fool, of course, is androgynous; he’s like a clown. The Magician pretended to be a guy but he could shape shift. And then the first thing he did was say, “Let’s go honour the priestess. First stop, everybody, come with me. We’re going to her first.” 

BRIGIT: I love it. 

DEBRA: When I do a reading or when I consult the Tarot, I always start with a prayer because you’ve got to go to the priestess to make sure she lets you into the temple.  

BRIGIT: Yeah, that’s neat. I really like that. Yeah, beautiful. Debra, what’s coming up for you over the next few months in your world? 

DEBRA: That lovely new moon on May 15th, and then we have the new moon at the end of May. I always pay attention to the moon cycles. This is my birthday month, May. I’m turning into a grown up, working on it. Let’s see… I have a school, as you know, that starts two times a year; one is in January through February, one is August through September, so we launch. 

It was so odd when we talked our first time and how we had so many similarities. It’s just so wild that you and I both, I think we start from the same radio station, like whoever downloaded the program to us, that must have been the High Priestess. 

I have a school that goes twice a year, and then I have the It’s a platform where for $22 a month, you can come and study the new moon, the full moon, the retrogrades, the eclipses, and once you know that, and you start in every month… I’ve sent out an overview of the month, and you bring out your calendar. 

See, I’m an experiential learner. I don’t like to read, I want to hear it, and I write it down in my book. “Uh-oh, here comes the cycle.” For example, we’re coming from Taurus to Gemini in the month of May. You’ll feel the beginning of the month of May, everything slows down and then, all of a sudden, by May 21st, the energy shifts. And if you can start paying attention, you don’t just regard the energetics of the seasons, of the cycles, of the rhythm; you become very synchronistic. And that’s what psychic ability is. 

The real psychic… And you know my friend is Colette Baron-Reid. I’ve known her for 20 some years. I mean her gift spooks me out, but she’s a moon child. She’s a Cancer. She’s so in touch with the moon. I do a show with her on Hay House every month because she’s so respectful. 

The psychics in the world, any of you watching this, must have a relationship with the moon if you’re going to play with the High Priestess, because go look what the High Priestess card is in the Tarot deck. Go consult that invisible… It’s at night time. The moon shows up in the dark; wisdom comes through the dark, and only a wise woman knows how to sit quietly without being scared of the dark. And if you are scared, that’s why you go see a Tarot reader, like, “Help me clean my energy,” or an astrologer, like, “What’s interrupting me? Why can’t I find my centre? Why am I so confused?” Those are all moon questions essentially. They’re like, “I can’t find my emotional stability—can you help me?” In Tarot readings, you do.  

BRIGIT: Neat. Beautiful. Oh, Debra it’s been such a joy to talk with you and to hear more about astrology and get really jazzed about the connection.  

DEBRA: You and I would sit in the temple together. I can see that you have the similar passion I do. We get women into the temple and remind them how to wear that during the day, that they can come out from the temple and share their goods, without being scared and to know it’s safe. You and I have a very similar mission. 

BRIGIT: I just wanted to touch on that idea of coming out of the temple and feeling safe, because I think, for me personally, that’s been something I’ve been doing over the last few years. That’s an evolutionary process, and there’s always sort of like little… I don’t know—it’s an ongoing learning process, how you bring this out in a really, really big way, and also in a way that you don’t let anything disrupt you from your path, I suppose. And I’m sure many folks who are listening as well, are sort of going through that journey of “How do I really fully embrace this part of myself without worrying about what others think of me?” and also, on the more positive side, “How I can feel really safe and whole in being this person?” 

DEBRA: Well, you put the Emperor card. You grab the Emperor card, and you put that in the front of your mirror, and you take that… You assume the position of the Emperor, whose job is what? To protect the Empress. You need your male energy. 

All of you listening here, you must have a develop male that says, “You know, honestly, I don’t care what you think. I mean, I know you think the Tarot is weird or astrology is ‘woo-woo,’ but I’m here to tell you the times have changed where we’re turning to the elders, to the mystics, we are not denying this anymore.” 

And then all of a sudden, your fire, your air (the Emperor’s air) is like, “I can do this.” If you need that strength, pull out a card. Honestly, it’s what my teacher taught me years ago, to stick it on your forehead. I always like to walk around with a Tarot on my forehead. 

BRIGIT: It’s a good game, what Tarot card am I? That’s a good way to learn.  

DEBRA: Have courage. Go use the Emperor. If you need some strength to feel like you don’t care, use the Fool card. You’re allowed to say the weirdest things and wear the weirdest clothes. These are all role models for you, and they’re different cards calling your name. And you’ll know because you picked them. Do you how that is when you get the same card that keeps reoccurring? 

BRIGIT: Yeah, definitely. Awesome. Debra, have you got any parting words, I guess, to make this conversation complete today? 

DEBRA: I would just say for any of you who are 28 to 30 or 58 to 60 that are watching this, you are in a critical moment in time, or any of you that are not that age group but you are waking up inside the dream, to know that this is the first time in herstory that we are allowed to be ourselves and not be afraid. 

One of the mantras I like to give women that are magically cultivating their intuition is “That was then, this is now; and in this now, I am so safe. I am so safe.” 

I’ve never been able to talk astrology. Everywhere I go, people wanted me to tell them. I used to be like, “I’m a psychologist with a little bit of…” 

Now, I’m like, “No, I’m an astrologer who uses psychology.” 

They’re like, “What?” 

But we’re free now, so I want you to all assume the position that that was then, this is now, and you can really claim the rights to your Priestess coming out during the day.  

BRIGIT: Beautiful, beautiful. Awesome. Thank you so much, Debra. And if you want to find out more about Debra, head on over to or check out the Star Community at Thank you so much again. I really, really appreciate it, Debra.  

DEBRA: We really, really love you. I think your radiance and your sweet beauty of the feminine… You carry such a beautiful innocence, and I’m so grateful that you’re sharing with so many of us.   

BRIGIT: Oh, that’s very sweet, thank you. 


There you have it. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Debra and me. I absolutely loved it. I learned a lot along the way, and I am super inspired to maybe dive into those astrology books again, although then again maybe not… Maybe I’ll just start straight into my birth chart. And perhaps you, too, have been inspired to learn more about your own birth chart. 

Now, I highly recommend checking out Debra’s YouTube channel. Her videos are hilarious, and she is just a wonderful and inspiring and energetic teacher, so I think you’ll really enjoy her videos there. 

Now, we also mentioned her book which is The Missing Element: Inspiring Compassion for the Human Condition. That is a great book for really understanding each of the four elements. Now, that not only will give you insight into astrology, but it’s going to give you insight into Tarot and how you can use the elements in your Tarot readings. 

All right, make sure you check out Debra, she’s over at We also have the links over on, and you’ll find the show notes and transcript for today’s call right there as well. I hope that you have an absolutely fabulous week ahead of you, and next week, I’m going to be talking all about why I am super proud to be a Tarot reader and perhaps why you should be, too. All right, we’ll speak then. Bye for now! 


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